Ben Lippen Podcast
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Ben Lippen Podcast
Developing a Biblical Theology of Race (Part 2)
Discover how the cross shapes our understanding of race and reconciliation with Dr. Ben Mathew on the Ben Lippen Podcast. Join us as we explore the profound themes of creation, fall, cross, redemption, and glory, focusing on the central role of the cross in God's grand narrative. Dr. Mathew offers fresh insights from Revelation 5, illuminating the powerful image of a multi-ethnic community united through Jesus' sacrifice. This episode promises to challenge and enrich your views on how the gospel informs racial discussions, reminding us that the ultimate story is about God's glory and our joy.
Through a thoughtful conversation, we examine how God's narrative is one of redemption and reconciliation, emphasizing that while the Bible's metanarrative centers on the gospel, it also informs essential narratives like racial reconciliation. Dr. Mathew, with his extensive knowledge, helps us uncover the significance of Jesus' blood in ransoming people from every tribe, language, people, and nation. Don't miss this chance to reflect on these profound themes and grow with us on this enlightening journey.
Click here to submit your questions and feedback for Dr. Mathew
Welcome to another episode of the Ben Lippin Podcast, and we are continuing our series with Dr Ben Matthew about the gospel and racial discussions here at Ben Lippin School. If you haven't caught the first two episodes, I encourage you to go back, listen to those and then pop over to listen to this one, and this one will make a whole lot more sense if you have the context of the first two. But if you don't have time to do that, that's okay. We'd love for you just to listen and see what the Lord has to offer you through this episode. So welcome, dr Matthew. We're so thankful that you're here today and we're excited to dive into part two of this developing a biblical theology of race.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. This has been a good journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it absolutely has. And you know I was telling Dr Matthew when we weren't recording that this is good for my heart to just to continue to examine things and grow. You know we never want to stop growing and learning. All right, so we covered creation in the fall in the last episode, which that then takes us to, which part, the cross.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as we're now, the five kind of points of this narrative creation, fall, cross, redemption and glory. God starts this wonderful thing, but man and our rebellion breaks it. But God doesn't give up on his story, he doesn't give up on his creation, and so the Old Testament is a continued narrative of man's attempts but failures, to reach God, to make reconciliation, and so, instead of us trying to make it up to God, God decides to come down to humans. This is appropriate because, as we're recording this, we're getting ready for the Christmas season and, as one of my professors said, our neighborhood is singing our songs because we, as Christians, appreciate this time, I think, more than anyone else, as we should that God became man and the reason he became man was to live a life of perfect obedience and ultimately, to go to the cross to die for our sins. And so, as I said in one of the earlier podcasts, we need to remember that the main story of the Bible is not racial reconciliation. The main story, the metanarrative, is the gospel of God coming to redeem mankind back to himself for God's glory and for our joy. That's the big story and the reason why Jesus died on the cross, but under that we can have these little stories, these other narratives that are informed by the big story, how the gospel informs, and when we come to this issue of the cross.
Speaker 2:One way that we kind of see this is actually not in the gospels itself, but actually in a passage in Revelation 5. Revelation 5 is John on the island of Patmos having these visions and these incredible revelation of God regarding the things that were and the things that are to come. And one of the visions he sees is this recognition of who Jesus is. As it's even said there, he's the lion and the lamb. And so in this passage in Revelation, chapter 5, after there's much weeping because no one can open the seals, and finally they look and it's this great passage Someone says to him there's the lion, the tribe of Judah has come. And then he looks and he sees a lamb. And it's not it's not intended to be a bait and switch kind of idea it's the lion, is the lamb.
Speaker 1:He's both.
Speaker 2:But then it goes on to say because of who he is. In verse nine of Revelation five, worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals? For you were slain, and by your blood. So just to be clear, they're declaring the worthiness of Jesus because of his sacrifice of blood on the cross. So this passage is actually about the cross. It's what Jesus did. When it says and by your blood, that's a direct reference to the cross. But according to this passage, look what his blood accomplishes by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe, in language and people and nation.
Speaker 2:What I find fascinating about what John does here through the Holy Spirit, he doesn't just say and you ransomed people from God, from everywhere. He goes out of his way to use terms, very specific terms tribe, language, people and nation, to highlight that the redemption of God, the ransoming of people for God through the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross, is intended to find a multi-ethnic community. This is part of the reason One way that I said it to a colleague of mine is that not the main reason, but one of the reasons. One way that I said it to a colleague of mine is that not the main reason, but one of the reasons. One of the reasons Jesus died on the cross was to redeem and ransom to himself a multi-ethnic community. I don't see any other way of interpreting this verse than through that lens. It's not the main reason, it's not the only reason Jesus died, but if any of you know ideas of what we refer to as the atonement, the reasons why Jesus died, we appreciate. I think the main theory of the atonement is that he died for our sins. But other things were accomplished at the cross. Namely, he died for our sins so that he to have a multi-ethnic community in heaven in glory. That gives a greater opportunity to give glory back to the lion and to the lamb. So I think we need to appreciate again that the cross is doing something.
Speaker 2:The work of the atonement is connected. It's not the only reason, but it's part of the reason Jesus died, which puts this conversation on a much higher plane. This is not just like, if we get time to talk about reconciliation, great. No, this is to the very heart of the gospel and if we miss it, it's to our incredible loss that we don't see the full beauty. It's kind of like a diamond. It has many facets. Turn it, it sparkles. This is one of the facets of the gospel that I think we need to find and find the joy and beauty in it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's interesting because when you read that scripture from Revelation, it ties right back to what you mentioned in episode two about Genesis and Genesis 11 and what happened there, because that's when the diversity in the nation started to be, and so he's coming back to reconcile that.
Speaker 2:That's a great way of saying it, aaron, what he started in Abraham. Abraham, I want to work with you and your nation to bless the nations. But we see failure after failure after failure in the Old Testament. And so what does God do? He comes down and he's going to be, but the only way he can reach the nations is by dying for them. I think too often we get so worked up in the political discourse of this discussion it blinds us to the gospel orientation of this discussion. Jesus died for a multi-ethnic community. Put aside whatever other biases or political notions you may have. Let the gospel first speak to it. This is why we celebrate Christmas. Part of the joy of saying Merry Christmas is that Jesus became a man to fulfill the reality of Revelation 5.
Speaker 1:I'm getting emotional as you're talking about this, because I mean, we see, here at Ben Lippin we have an international program with students literally from all over the world, and even with our day program we have students from different parts of the world or different cities, and it's overwhelming to me to think about that. So in our discussion so far we covered God and the fall and the cross, but we are missing a key component that kind of makes it all happen for us.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right, because what Jesus accomplishes on the cross, he now gives us, the church, the opportunity to live out, which I find so amazing. It's kind of like when God started with Adam and Eve. He doesn't need them to do his work, but he wants to labor with them because we're made in his image. I think we see a repeat of that with the beginning of the church. Jesus accomplishes the work, but he wants to partner with us to realize the work. He doesn't need our help, but he wants to partner with us. And so I looked up a passage in Acts, chapter two. It's what theologians often refer to as the beginning of the church, church with a big C right Church. That's been going on for about 2000 years in all kinds of contexts and cultures and communities. The church is the bride of Christ. It's the means by which he now will reach the nation. The work is done, but the work is now to be affected through the church.
Speaker 2:And what I love about Acts chapter two, if you read through this passage, it talks about how there suddenly came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind. It filled the entire house where they were sitting and the divided tongues, as a fire appeared to them, rested on each one of them and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. What's so amazing about this? I don't have time to read through, but if you read Acts, chapter 2, verses 5 to 11, the physician, dr Luke, goes through and names all of the different places they're from. It's almost like you kind of appreciate physicians being detailed in their work. This is what he does when he's writing this account of the Acts of the Apostles and he talks about from Parthenians and Medes and Judea and Cappadocia. And he goes through this long list and part of me is like Luke, why not just say from all over the place? And I think what he's doing is he's going out of his way, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to highlight these are people from all over the nations the same nations that were dispersed all the way back in Genesis 11, are now gathered together and look what happens.
Speaker 2:Remember Genesis 11, as Aaron said before, if you missed that podcast, go listen to it. But in Genesis 11, god comes down and through language divides. But look now here at Acts 2. God, through the Holy Spirit, comes down and through language unites. You're supposed to see those bookends from Genesis 11 and Acts 2. Genesis 11 is because of the rebellion of man and the judgment of God to divide them through language. But Acts 2 is because of the finished work of Christ on the cross, which now enables people from all of these different nations to come together. As it says there, we hear them telling in our own tongues Before they couldn't understand each other and they were divided. Now they understand each other, but what do they understand? We hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.
Speaker 2:The whole point is that now and you read the rest of Acts and you see that what starts in Jerusalem, this ragtag group of people, are now being sent, sometimes by their own decisions, sometimes through persecution, but there is no doubt that the gospel starts spreading to all of these people outside of the Jewish nation. Sometimes people struggle with that. Look at what Peter goes through. Look at the council at Jerusalem, Look at all the discussions. Can people who are not Jew come into relationship with God? And the answer is yes, Because of what Christ accomplished. The church has now has the opportunity to be a witness to the mighty works of God. But I love those bookends. Genesis 11, god comes down and through language divides. Acts 2, god comes down and through language unites. We can't miss that.
Speaker 1:No, it's beautiful and it's, you know, even applying that to ourselves with the language that we use, can be used, like Genesis, to divide, or it can be like we see here in Acts, to unify. So we can use that parallel. As you're talking to him, thinking, you know you're naming all the nations and it's this long list, and what came to mind is he called the nations by name. And we all don't, we all desire to be called by name and to be recognized and to be seen, and we even see that. You know by name. I have called you, you are mine, or you know we were knit in our mother's womb, and we even see that. You know by name. I have called you, you are mine, or you know we were knit in our mother's womb, and so that's an example of that too. You know he calls the nations by name because he cares and loves all of them and Luke, I love how he defines that.
Speaker 2:He goes out of his way to highlight that. We see a story later of Philip with an Ethiopian eunuch and again, this guy's already got two strikes against him. He's an Ethiopian and he's a eunuch According to Old Testament law. Both those things disqualify him from coming into the assembly of God. And yet, because of the finished work of Christ on the cross and what is initiated in the church, this Ethiopian eunuch who's reading a scroll from the book of Isaiah is like is this someone I can know? Is this a reality for me? Ethiopian eunuch, which Philip says yeah, that is unheard of In the thousands of years of the Jewish faith that someone who is so far outside can be brought in. Why? Because what God started in Genesis 1, making humanity in his image is now what he's redeeming to himself, but still engaging with the realities of who they are. I just think that's such a beautiful reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, god doesn't change, he is who he is.
Speaker 2:He is Exactly.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what are the realities and the culmination of these when it comes to racial discussions?
Speaker 2:And I love the word that you use there, erin the culmination. That's exactly what this is. It's the resolution that God has, because we're in this moment of reconciliation, of redemption. But we need to be honest, it's still hard, it's still difficult, we're still working, sometimes not always working well, and so the hope that we have, the reason why saints throughout history have said Maranatha to each other is because we look forward to the day of Jesus's return, the King coming back to put right all that is wrong.
Speaker 2:And there's a passage in Revelation 7, we're going back to the book of Revelation where again John sees a vision. He doesn't discuss just the things that were like Revelation 5, but he also talks about the things that are to come. And when John is given a vision of what is to come Revelation 7,. After this I looked and behold a great multitude that no one could number and again look at his detail from every nation and tribe and people and language. The same distinctions that were made in Revelation 5 regarding the death of Jesus secures those people. John now looks into the future and he sees those same people standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands and crying out with a loud voice Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the lamb. What I love about this again, john doesn't just say I saw a whole bunch of people. He goes out of his ways to describe a multi-ethnic, diverse community, and I think the reason is is because even in their diversity there's significant unity, but it's actually their diversity that informs their unity. So the fact that they're in white robes, I think, is key, because they're now clothed with the righteousness of Christ, but they don't how can I say this best? They don't lose their ethnic reality.
Speaker 2:I look at a passage like this and I have to understand. Let me say this very clearly you can't see me in the podcast, but my family is originally from India and so my complexion is brown, very, very dark skin, comparatively to Erin, who I can assume you're from more of a European background. Correct, yes, and so you would identify, I assume, as white. Yes, based on this verse, I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb, but I don't think too far of a limb. When we get to glory, we will maintain our ethnic realities, according to this passage, when there's people from every tribe and tongue and nation and language. I think if I'm born a brown man in this life, I'm going to persist to be a brown man in glory. If you're born a white woman in this life, you're going to persist as a white woman in glory.
Speaker 2:But here's the reason why God wants to persist our differences, because the differences actually add to the fact that only Jesus can bring us together, only the great conductor. If you've ever been to a symphony, you know when you listen to the brass section, oh they're awesome. And you listen to the woodwinds, oh they're incredible. And you hear the strings and you're like, oh, that's amazing. But it's only when the diversity of the symphony comes together under the instruction of the great conductor that you fully love and enjoy the beauty of the song.
Speaker 2:What if we look at glory in that same way that when we all get to heaven? My wife is also of European descent and she's very white and I'm very brown. God will not bring us to heaven one day and take out his universal, remote and color correct us all to beige right? Yeah, he's not going to darken her up and he's not going to lighten me up, because the differences we have here in life are intended to be a reflection of the glory of God. He wants the diversity, but not just for diversity's sake, and I think that's where we kind of go wrong in our culture. We want diversity for ourselves. God wants diversity for his glory. What if we got a vision of that?
Speaker 2:And what if, kind of like the Lord's Prayer our Father, which art in heaven, give us this day or day? Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, and earth as it is in heaven. What if we have a vision for what God's going to do in the glory? To come and work for that reality now. I to come and work for that reality now. I think that's what our hope in Christ is all about is that we have a vision of what he's going to do and we can have hope to live that reality out.
Speaker 1:Difficult to be sure but possible because of the finished work of Christ that we talked about on the cross. It's so true. I love everything that we have talked about and that we're just continuing to build on this and our prayer. Dr Matthew and I, we've been praying about this podcast for a while, but our prayer is that the Lord is just working within you through listening to this and that he is showing you his truth and where he wants you to move and grow. So I'm going to close this episode up like we have the other two. What would you say to the person who's listening to this and like, wow, this is just great, but I don't really know what to do with the information.
Speaker 2:Those three points that we kind of covered today in this episode cross, redemption and glory. Have you first to quote some old great hymns have you come to the cross? And I don't mean for salvation, but the cross informs my continued sanctification. I can get caught up in all the debates and politics of this topic and just get so polarized, but when I come to the cross it just humbles me. It just it puts me in right perspective to him, One of the reasons Jesus died was to redeem a multi-ethnic community for his glory.
Speaker 2:Am I willing to embrace that cross? That's hard. When Jesus says, take up your cross, that's a hard thing to do but it actually leads to something so much better. But can we start there with the hopes then, of that cross truth informing our redemption work? And so to me again, part of it is am I willing to engage with others, kind of like what happened in Acts 2. Am I willing to actually sit down and have a cup of coffee with someone who's not from my community and start talking about some of this stuff?
Speaker 2:Hey, did you hear that podcast that Ben Lippin's putting out? I'd love to get your thoughts. What do you think, what do you like, what do you not like, but do it with someone that you would never think you would do. Because I think that's what they felt like at Pentecost what is that guy doing there? Why is she here? But then they saw the mighty works of God and said, oh, look what God is doing. If we can start having those conversations just little bit, maybe just reaching out to somebody outside of your comfortable community and having some coffee, I think that'd be a good thing. To then celebrate that we're not just stuck here. There's a future hope. How can you think about? I always tell my kids at Christmas time Christmas leads to Easter, easter leads to the King. How can this time help us think about what God is going to do in the future? How can we be part of a symphony that actually brings greater glory to the conductor?
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for that. Okay, so, like we said in the other episodes, we have a form linked in the show notes. If you have any questions, comments concerns that you would like to share with me or Dr Matthew, please fill out that form. We want you to fill out that form. We want to know your thoughts and have your questions, because we're going to be doing a final wrap-up episode where we're taking all of your questions, comments concerns and discussing them because we want you to have a voice in this discussion as well. So, before we hit stop, how can people get in touch with you if they want to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always appreciate communication with others to the degree I can actually have a cup of coffee. That's always good. But you can always reach me through an email benmathew at ciuedu.
Speaker 1:Wonderful. All right, guys, we'll see you on our.