Ben Lippen Podcast

Developing a Biblical Theology of Race (Part 1)

• Ben Lippen Podcast • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Dr. Ben Mathew from Columbia International University joins us to explore the intricate relationship between the gospel and racial discussions, guided by a reflective heart posture. Discover how good theology serves as a vital foundation for addressing race through a biblical perspective, using the rich framework of creation, fall, cross, redemption, and glory. While racial reconciliation might not be the Bible's central theme, it emerges as a pivotal subplot in the greater narrative of redemption and God's glory.

We journey into the profound concept of intrinsic human value through the eyes of faith and theology. Inspired by a child's innocent perspective and the wisdom of C.S. Lewis, we unravel the sacredness of each individual, created in God's image, worthy of love and respect. The creation story reinforces our collective unity and "very good" nature before the fall. Delving into the tale of the Tower of Babel, we set the stage for understanding our identity, value, and purpose, offering a biblical lens to navigate race and diversity discussions.

Our conversation takes a deep dive into the divine plan for redemption and unity as showcased in Genesis. The contrast between human ambition in the Tower of Babel story and God's redemptive promise to Abram illuminates the path from division to unity. By recentering our identity in God's image, we unveil a hope that transcends cultural and ethnic distinctions. Engage with us by submitting your thoughts and questions for Dr. Mathew, as we address them in our concluding episode. Connect with Dr. Matthew at ben.mathew@ciu.edu and be part of this transformative dialogue.

Click here to submit your questions and comments for Dr. Mathew to review.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Welcome to another episode of the Ben Lippen Podcast. We are diving into the second episode of our series with Dr. Ben Mathew from Columbia International University, and this series is about the gospel and racial discussions here at Ben Lippen School. So if you missed the first episode, go back, have a listen and then come back to this one. It'll make a whole lot more sense with what we're talking about. So welcome, Dr. Mathew, we're glad to have you here.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Great to be back again.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

So in the last episode we talked a little bit about our heart posture and now that we have established our personal heart posture, we can now step more fully or be more present with developing that biblical theology of race and what that looks like, examining everything through the lens of scripture and what the Lord says. So I turn that over to you. This is definitely your wheelhouse.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, I so appreciate that we can start that first episode on heart posture With the recognition that may be continual work that we need to do. As we get into these other episodes Other responses may come up, other recognitions of how you're feeling about this, and so feel free to go back to the encouragements that we discussed in that first episode. It's not kind of a once and done kind of thing, as much as it is an ongoing, as we're engaging with these ideas. But the way that I always like to kind of move forward with this, because we do want to get and that's kind of getting to some of our later episodes, we do want to be very practical and think about the applications of this, particularly within Ben Lippen, within your family, within your community. So we are kind of moving the bus down there. But we can't have good application unless we have good theology.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Read almost any of the epistles. You'll see that they almost all start with significant and robust theology that then informs practical ways of living. I think that's always a good model to have and so for me, in this area of race, of ethnicity, of multicultural discussions, before we get into all I can say it that way to kind of organize our ways of thinking through this issue of race and ethnicity. It's called biblical theology and it's been helpful. That, I think, really does a good job of trying to help you understand essentially what biblical theology is is seeing a story, and I think we can all appreciate a good story, whether you've read a book or seen a movie or gone to a play. We all know the basic elements of a good story Once upon a time and in the beginning they have all the characters and the setting and the development. But then something difficult happens, some problem enters into this individual's life but through progress and effort, with some bumps and bruises along the way, they're able to somewhat overcome the situation that's come on to them with the hopes of resolution. Or often what we say, they all lived happily ever after of resolution. Or often what we say, and they all lived happily ever after.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

That idea of what entails a good story really, in my opinion, comes from the best story of all, namely the gospel. The Bible starts with, not once upon a time, but in the beginning, god and Genesis 1 and 2 set up the characters, the setting, which then Genesis 3 helps us understand the problem, particularly of the fall, and we see that in human throughout generations. But God doesn't give up on his story. In fact, he enters into his story through the person and work of Jesus Christ, a life that's perfect, that is sacrificed on a Roman cross. But three days later he's resurrected and he's now in the midst of doing this redemption, this reconciliation work that we're in right now. Here we are trying to be part of God's work because one day the king is coming back. Jesus will return and will make all things right. It's not just that they all lived happily ever after, it's that the king returns and wins.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

The main story, just to be clear, the main story of the Bible is not racial reconciliation. We need to start there because I think sometimes we make the issue of race maybe too much and we try to push it into scripture in ways that it's not. It's what theologians called eisegesis, reading into the text rather than allowing the text to speak to us, pulling out of exegetical work. The main story of the Bible is not about race. And yet, as DA Carson, another theologian up at Trinity Evangelical School, says, we can trace other stories under the bigger story.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

The big story is the redemption of mankind through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That's the big story, what some call the meta-narrative over-story but there are other little stories that connect with that, using that same scaffolding creation, fall, frost, redemption, glory. So for our next couple of podcast episodes, I want to use those five particular areas to give us some scaffolding framework and help us understand that, while race is not the main story of the gospel, it is actually part of a story of the gospel. It's one aspect that is intended to not just bless humanity but ultimately to give glory to God, and so that's kind of the framework if that kind of makes sense of what I'm hoping to get into with our sessions here.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yeah, that does make sense. It's something that we should focus on and examine, but it shouldn't be all that we focus on and examine as humans and or as Christians and sometimes it can become all consuming because we have so many different voices and narratives and changing scripts happening around us. It can, it can be a distraction at times, all right. So something else that I think that is important to do here is just to do some quick definitions of race, ethnicity and culture, and what are the differences between those three things?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Great question. Yeah, this is one that sometimes it's difficult to make those definitions, because if you look up 20 books you'll get 20 different answers on what that means. I think kind of a shortened version that I often go by is the recognition that race is somewhat of a bit of a made up concept. I mean, there's there's a long history as to how the idea of race whether it be white or black or or Asian or whatever that unfortunately has a pretty dark history to it, and so the term race technically doesn't have any like biological or really any kind of physiological reality to it. It's a made up term that was used in a lot of ways to really hurt people, and so I often say that race is not real but racism is very real, and so the difference that I think about when it comes to that, I think what we're we are talking about is ethnicity.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Ethnicity are some of those cultural distinctions. For instance, I'm from an Indian background. My parents were born and raised in India, but they came to Canada, so I was born and raised in Canada and so, as you kind of said in my bio, I was able to kind of understand the differences, what some sociologists called code switching. When I was with my Indian family, my cousins, we would eat and dress and talk and respond to certain realities that were common to our ethnic construct there. But when I was at school or a church which was predominantly in a white Canadian context, there were different ways and so understandably if I can give you one example with my Indian family, we didn't talk a lot about ice hockey. Somewhat understandably, it's not part of their culture.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

A lot of players on Team India for hockey, surprisingly but when I was with my Canadian friends that was always part of the conversation. And so I think ethnicity is a much more helpful term in that we're trying to engage with the cultural differences that are found within people groups, what the New Testament often refers to as ethnos that you'll see, this idea of nations or different people groups. Sometimes race is used for that. It's kind of used as a synonymous term. We don't have enough time in this episode to get into the history of it, but that's why we even use it in this, because it's kind of a shorthand for what I think a lot of times we're talking about when it comes to ethnicity and culture in some of those ways.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

That ties back so well to the point that you made in the first episode when you were talking about Paul and him kind of becoming but doing it responsibly.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, that his ethnic, cultural realities and that's what I like about it is that he doesn't ignore them they're still light enough to him that he can adjust as needed. Jewish context I'll be very Jewish. Greek context I'll be very Greek, and so ethnicity was something and I think that's part of what we want to get into that even starts from this first issue of creation, right? So that's kind of the first part of this biblical theology is that in the beginning, when God creates, particularly when he comes to the creation of mankind, there's this great theological concept of being made in the image of God. You want to impress your friends at lunch day? Use the Imago Dei, get back to some ancient, and I think it's a concept most of us, as Christians, are familiar with. There's a lot to unpack with this. There's ideas of relationship. That's part of the Imago Dei being made in the image of a God who is a community himself. Let us make man in our image. I think there's ideas of reflection, of who we get to reflect to the world. I think there's aspects of reigning and kind of for lack of a better way of saying co-management that God instills in us as stewardship. He doesn't need our help, but he wants to work with us, Like he wants to partner and co-labor with us. I think that's all built into the Imago Dei as well. But one of the aspects I think that is also important is this idea of worth is intrinsic value of humans that is unlike anything else in creation. And so this notion of who we are, that when the Lord formed the man, this idea, as he says in Genesis 1, let us make kind in our image, after our likeness. So he created them in the image of God. He created them male and female.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

The example I often think about the house I used to live at with my wife and my kids. There was a school at the end of the street where it was a grade school, so lots of little kids, and I remember one day dropping my kids off and they're kind of in the middle of the road. Was this squirrel that I want to be careful how I say this had had had its last nut, if I can say it that way? It did not win the battle against whatever cars was crashing going through there, and so it was kind of. One of my kids noticed I said Dad, look at the dead squirrel. And sure enough, it actually led to a great conversation and I said why do you think it's interesting that all of us are just driving past this dead squirrel in the road? And one of my kids said well, because it's just a squirrel. I said I think that's the right answer. It's like we're not looking to hit the squirrel. That'd be another whole issue. But there's a dead squirrel in the which.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

I asked them the next question. I said but what if it was one of your friends that are going to school? They were crossing the street and one of your friends got hit by a car. What do you think we should do then? Oh, Dada, we should stop. We should stop and help that little kid. I said but why, If you're not stopping for the squirrel, why stop for your friend? To which my kid.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

You know, the greatest truths comes out of the smallest minds and hearts. But they said because God loves them. I just remember that response of hearing them say they understood, even at that young age. The difference between an animal and a human is because of how God sees them. It's not that God doesn't care about that squirrel. He cares even for the birds of the air, the foxes, and he cares about creation. But there's a unique and intrinsic value that he puts on humans that I think needs to start our conversation. It's not first about race, it's actually first about being loved by a God who cares for us. That, to me, centers my mind and heart on how we need to start this conversation.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Cs Lewis has a great quote where he talks about this idea that there are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Next to the blessed sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses. Wow, Isn't that just great? Yeah, and what if we start there? What if we, instead of saying, OK, that person's black, that person's white, that person's Asian, Again, we're going to get to some of those, but what if we start with? That person is a holy individual made in the image of God that God loves. And if that can be our starting point, I think that really helps us engage with so many of the other discussions we need to have as well.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And in the creation story you see, god made this and it was good and he made this and it was good. But then when he got to man, it was very good because we're set above.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, our identity is from God. This whole idea, this purpose is from God. Our value and, to be honest, the discussion of race and ethnicity is actually not in the beginning, largely because there's just two people there. There is no discussion of diversity when you only got two humans to start the story, Because I think God wants to not start with diversity. He wants to start with unity of who we are made in his image, our identity, our value, our purpose. Now we're going to get to some of the other stuff, but we need to start at the beginning who we are made in the image of God, Absolutely.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

So the fall you have creation and then we have very, you know, Genesis goes right quickly into the fall.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

And it does, and that's part of the ways I try to think about this. We can't start at the fall. We need to understand where we came from. That informs the fall Meaning. We can't know what the fall is unless we've understood where we've fallen from. We started in relationship with God, being made in value and worth. Genesis 3, we know the story how Satan comes in and, through temptation, adam and Eve rebel. They want to essentially do it their own way, in rebellion to God, and that causes us, causes them, to be separated and causes us as humanity to be broken from loving relationship. I try to fast forward a little. Genesis 3 most definitely is the fall of humanity, but I use another passage in Genesis 11 to inform a little bit as it relates to this discussion of racial reconciliation, because of some of the things that we're going to get into some future podcasts.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Genesis 11, some of you know it's a well-known story of the Tower of Babel. This desire, as it says in Genesis 11, 4, come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top to the heavens. Let us this is the Heman speaking Let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth. So we've got to do a little context. This is coming after the flood Noah and his family on the ark. The waters have started to recede, the flood has been put away, ark has now been opened, noah and his family is given this commandment to be fruitful and multiply and to disperse amongst the earth. It's kind of like a redoing of the garden, but instead of going out, the descendants of Noah stay together, and when they stay together, they come up with this plan let's go do this thing, let's make it up to God. But again, it's not so they can be in relationship with the God. As the text says, let's make a name for ourselves. If there's one thing that the fall has done to humanity, it has made us the center of the story. Let us make a name for ourselves, and we've been struggling with that since day one.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

And so I look at that desire, the evil desire of humans to build a tower to reach God. And then you see the response of God accordingly Genesis 11, verses 7 and 8. And then the Lord said come, let us go down. So again you see the parallel Humans want to go up. God says I'm coming down and confused their language so that they may not understand one another's speech. So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of the earth, and this is what a lot of theologians recognize as kind of the beginning of the nations, the table of nations as we kind of refer to it.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

This idea that when man in his rebellion wants to move to God, to make a name for himself, god in judgment and here's the ways I often try to think about it God comes down and through language divides. God comes down and through language divides. And so this is where we start seeing the division of people, groups, ethnic groups, cultural groups is here because of the rebellion of humanity. And this is an important point, because this is going to be the first point of a bookend that we're going to see later in the book of Acts, and we'll get to that in a future podcast.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

But we need to understand that this is most definitely because of the rebellion of man. But one of the things that I love to remind people is that while they're arrogant, prideful and rebellious, and so God comes down, and through language divides, god doesn't give up. So Genesis 11 is God's judgment. But you just turn the page over to the next chapter. In Genesis 12, god initiates a plan. Now, he's already known this plan before the foundations of the earth, but he's now enacting it, particularly through a man named Abram, who we later know as Abraham. And he says to him this is in Genesis 1, 12 and 1, go from your country to your kindred, to your father's house, to a land. I will show you and listen to what he says here in verse 2. And I will make of you a great nation, I will bless you and make your name great. So and I look at that and I recognize one of the things that is so amazing about this Again, genesis 11, god comes down through language divides, turn the page over and he says okay, now, abram, I want to bless you what we know through the nation of Israel.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

But it's not just to bless Israel, it's actually to bless the nation, and one of the things he says to Abram is I will make your name great, which is almost the exact word for word phrase that the builders of the Tower of Babel said for themselves. They said let us make our name great. God disciplines them in judgment. Then God says to Abraham I'm going to make your name great. It's not that making a name great is bad, it's who you're trying to do it for. I look at Genesis 11 and 12 as this great challenge, but also hope God doesn't give up on humanity, even though he's now dispersed them throughout the nations. He has a plan to redeem those people, starting first through Abraham, but ultimately through what we know as the Messiah, the one that's coming to deliver and redeem even though we're fallen.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Oh, and as you're talking, I'm thinking about, when it comes to this discussion of race and ethnicity and culture, are we, in our interactions with other people and interactions with our own thoughts, even trying to make a name for ourselves? Are we trying to make our point known? I?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

think that's going to be some of the stuff we get into those application points in our later podcast, because you're absolutely right, aaron, we have to recognize that some of our motivations, if we're honest, stem out of that Genesis 3, genesis 11 motivation. Part of it is recognizing it and seeking how the gospel can hopefully inform us in some better ways.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yeah, absolutely. And then I even saw, as you're speaking about. You know, god came down and created that division through language, which is really diversity being born, but then, like you said, diversity division. But then he also used that, that redemptive power. He used it for unity in a way that only the Lord can. That's right, which is why we can't leave him out of this conversation.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Absolutely, he doesn't give up. If we were left with Genesis 11, it'd be pretty sad and I feel sometimes we have not culturally, maybe even as a Christian church community, kind of seen past Genesis 11 because we get so stuck in that mentality. We're all divided. Why even bother? I want to give us some hope, because I think scripture gives us some hope beyond chapter 11.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Absolutely Okay. Well, this has been a very informative episode, giving us those contexts. I love when we can tie the Old Testament into today. So, closing this up, what would you say to a listener who is just grappling with this idea, all these ideas that you shared with us today? How would you speak to them to help them center back in?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

You know, especially going off these first two elements, I think. First, recognizing creation. You are made in the image of a God who loves you. That's your identity first and foremost, not your ethnicity, not the color of your skin, not the culture you're from or the expressions of. Those are all good and wonderful things. We're going to get to that, but your identity is not first your culture, your ethnicity. Your identity is informed by what God has done, making you one in his image.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

I think sometimes we need to kind of let that be the first point. And if your identity is seen in anything other than that, maybe that needs to be a challenge for you to kind of recenter your identity, whatever ethnicity you may be. And I appreciate how you said it earlier, aaron. I think when it comes to the fall, perhaps there are some elements of the fall still working in our heart where we kind of want to maintain the division because we want to make a name for ourselves. I do believe a lot of the discussion in today's culture about race and ethnicity is motivated out of pride rather than a desire to make a great name for God. I need to. I need to be willing to ask those hard questions why am I getting into this? What am I trying to advocate for? Am I advocating for the name and the greatness of God, or my own name and my own greatness? I think those are some questions we need to really wrestle with, so we can let the gospel inform us that much more.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Oh, that's wonderful. I will like in our first episode, there'll be a form linked in the show notes where you can post any questions that you have, any comments, any concerns. Dr Mathew and I we will be doing our final episode where we're going to be taking these questions and comments and putting them together so that y'all can be involved in this process. So again, Dr. Mathew, thank you for being here with us today. And how should people get in touch with you if they would like to speak with you?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

I'm a professor over at Columbia International University, so my email is always going to be the easiest way to get ahold of me. B-e-n dot M-A-T-H-E-W at C-I-U dot E-D-U.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Awesome. Thanks so much and we'll see everybody on the next episode.

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