Ben Lippen Podcast

The Gospel, Race, and Heart Posture

• Ben Lippen Podcast • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Join us for an eye-opening conversation with Dr. Ben Mathew, a respected figure in counseling and theology, as we navigate the complex intersection of The Gospel and race at Ben Lippen School. Discover how Dr. Mathew’s multicultural upbringing shapes his unique approach to these sensitive discussions, emphasizing the critical role of heart posture and personal reflection. Learn how grounding our conversations in biblical truth, specifically Jude 3, can be a powerful unifying force, steering us away from political divides and towards a faith-driven dialogue.

We explore the delicate balance between holding strong convictions and remaining adaptable, drawing inspiration from biblical figures like Jude and Paul. Through engaging metaphors, such as comparing our heart posture to Gumby and Stretch Armstrong, we illustrate the importance of staying grounded while being flexible. We uncover personal and communal growth opportunities by examining our initial reactions and encouraging honest self-reflection. This episode is a call to embrace God’s invitation to grow beyond our current state, aligning with the sanctification journey.

Click here to share your questions about this episode with us.  We will review responses to cover in an upcoming recording

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Welcome to another episode of the Ben Lippen Podcast. I am excited to have the first episode in our series, our new series that we're introducing about The Gospel and race discussions at Ben Lippen School. And, without further ado, I'd like to introduce to you our guest expert, Dr. Ben Mathew. How are you doing today?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

I'm doing great, Erin, great to be with you.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Thank you All right. So a little bit about Dr Mathew.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

So, with his family from India and being born and raised in Canada, Ben has always appreciated the integration of cultures and ideas and was blessed to be involved in several ministries in his home church and community. With degrees in counseling, psychology and theology, Ben also enjoys the integration and collaboration of various academic disciplines. He earned his bachelor's degree in biblical studies from Emmaus Bible College and continued his graduate work at Dallas Theological Seminary, earning an MA in counseling and a PhD in psychology from North Central University. Ben worked in the Dallas area for several years in private practice and at the nationally known Minrith Clinic, specializing in adolescent rehab and treatment of mental health issues. For the past two decades, Ben has been involved in higher education, helping to develop students and others to think critically and holistically about their faith, profession and care for others. He served for over 20 years at Emmaus Bible College in various positions, most recently as a chair of the health service department and professor in the counseling psychology program. Ben is a board-cert certified counselor in CC and currently serves as a professor of clinical counseling in the graduate counseling programs MA and PhD at Columbia International University. He also maintains a small counseling practice as a licensed professional counselor and supervisor in South Carolina, where he lives with his wife, Jenna, and their four children.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

We're so thankful to have you and to have you as a resource here at Ben Lippen. You're literally right here because we share campus, so we're just so thankful to have your expertise in this kind of a hot topic, to be able to tie it back to a Biblical worldview and how we can implement some of these things. So I'm sure our listeners are just Erin, well, where is this conversation going to go and what is the vein that we're going to be in? So let's just kind of dive in. So in this first episode we want to talk about our posture on the topic of race, so I'm just going to kind of turn it over to you and your expertise.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, no, I appreciate this, Erin, and I really do appreciate the desire of Ben Lippen to kind of step into it. You said it perfectly this is a topic that's rife with a lot of opinion and a lot of polarization, and somewhat understandably, I get that. I think our culture tends to provide a lot of heat and not a lot of light when it comes to these issues, and so we kind of encamp ourselves into one side or the other. And so I think, understandably, some people that are listening to this podcast, even seeing the title come up on their screen, might go, oh my, what's Ben Lippen getting into, and why are they getting into it? All these questions, I'm sure, are coming up because our culture really wants to push the polarization of it.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

So, as much as we need to get into some of the specifics, we need to talk some biblical theology, we need to talk about some practical elements.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Before we kind of dive into all that, I always try to think about what I refer to as my heart posture, knowing that I'm not unbiased, knowing that I already have certain perspectives when I'm challenged, when I'm engaging with areas that I may be unfamiliar with. First thing I need to often do before I get into the topic is address my heart and be willing to say, okay, what areas do I need to submit myself to the Lord and respond to with the Holy Spirit? That's my hope with this first episode. Before we get into the issues, before we even kind of get into some of the responses that we may have, my hope is that we can kind of start thinking about a heart posture so that we can get into the issues, so we don't miss, I think, what God's Word and what we here at Ben Lippen School can be doing in this important topic. So that's kind of one of the areas I wanted to start with with you in this first episode.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yeah, I agree with that. It's important to understand how we're created, why we're created, the way that we are as individuals and as a collective, but also where some of these implicit biases lie within us, and you know that discussion of. Are our biases bad or are they an opportunity for us to examine posture? So what is your? What are your thoughts on heart posture?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Like I said, a really important place to start, maybe kind of alleviate kind of concerns on both sides. One of the things that I'm wanting to ensure is that we are wanting to, first and foremost, speak out of an authority of God's word, out of a conviction of God's truth. In no way is this intended to be a political podcast. This is not intending to be. Hey, this is what this side says, or that side says. We want to ground this first in God's truth.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

So I often think of a passage like in Jude 3, this little epistle right before the book of Revelation, where he says although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. I look at that. That's a great passage, this little powerful epistle where Jude is wanting to say, first and foremost, the reason we're talking and engaging with these ideas is because The Gospel unites us. And because The Gospel unites us, it's The Gospel that informs our continued engagement in whatever issue, whether it be race, whether it be sexuality, whether it be politics, whatever topic we may come across, the hope is that we're first coming out of a point of biblical conviction that we can contend for the faith that is once delivered to the saints.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

And that's I want to kind of hopefully let the hearers of this podcast understand that's where we want to start from. We're not looking to be woke, we're not looking to be cutting edge or culturally. You know, with it Our desire first and foremost and I know this of Ben Lippen, I know this of where I'm at at CIU we want the authority of God's word to lead our discussions, and so to me I think that's really important. Now, hopefully, the listeners of this podcast will assess that truth or not. I'm hoping I can kind of showcase that, but I think, like the Bereans in the book of Acts, it's your job to make sure that assessment is true. We're hoping we've come out of a conviction of God's truth to contend for it earnestly and letting that be our kind of North Star in some of these discussions. On the other side, if I can kind of maybe say it, on kind of two sides of the same coin, I do want us to recognize we have an opportunity here, I think, to hold conviction with one hand and be flexible with the other. And the passage that I often think about for that is the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 9. Corinthians is this great book that they're dealing with so many different issues and Paul's trying to constantly bring them back to The Gospel as it informs the Lord's Supper, or marriage, or sexuality or whatever. And there's this one context where he's talking about cultural engagement, and we won't get into all the details of it, but one of the things he says in 1 Corinthians, chapter 9, let me read some of the passage and it kind of informs what I'm talking about. For though I am free from all, I've made myself a servant to all that I might win more of them. To the Jews I become a Jew in order to win Jews. To those under the law, I became as one under the law that I might win those who are under the law. To those outside the law, I become as one outside the law that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I become weak that I might win the weak. I become all things to all people that by all means I might save some. I do it for the sake of The Gospel. Now I read a verse like that.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

I think there's no question Paul is a passionate man for The Gospel. In the book of Galatians, when he sees Peter doing things that are not in keeping, he rebukes him straight to his face, as he does the Galatian church in general. But in this passage, even though he's firmly committed to The Gospel, he's also willing to be flexible. Right, like even the first line to the Jews I've become a Jew, which is such an almost funny sounding statement. I've become a Jew, which is such an almost funny sounding statement.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

How does a man who is already a Jew become a Jew to reach Jews? It seems like an antithetical kind of notion, but I think what Paul is saying is that his if I can use this term his Jewness was something he can use and not use, because it wasn't his defining reality, it wasn't the most important thing to him. But he'll use it, he'll engage with it if it helps advance The Gospel, similarly to those who aren't Jewish, those who, as he says, are outside of the law. If he's with Greeks, he's going to be a little more Greek. If he's with weak, if he's with those outside inside, he's willing to have a flexibility in the contexts he's in in order to help people see and understand The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

He has this conviction that I think Jude is talking about Let us contend earnestly for the faith. And yet he has a flexibility where he's willing to move into different spaces and reach them where they're at. And I look at that and I realize, yeah, I want to have conviction and not be just woke or culturally relevant, but nor do I want to be indifferent to these issues. Paul was willing to recognize the cultural, religious, socioeconomic, like one of them. He talks about how he does this, all for the sake of The Gospel. I want to have both those postures. I want to be a person of conviction, no-transcript, especially as relates to something that's so polarizing. That, to me, is, I think, where we need to start when it comes to this heart posture idea.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

And what's coming to mind when you're talking about this and I'm dating myself a little bit here, but Gumby, or that old doll. Stretch Armstrong or Inspector Gadget right. Like the molecules that create Gumby and Stretch Armstrong, they don't change, but their flexibility allows them to reach out and do more.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Gumby's still Gumby, even when you pull on them.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Exactly, exactly, and we are still who God designed us to be. And you know, something else that's coming to mind too is, you know, having the heart posture is having a hardened heart, and sometimes we realize it, we recognize it and maybe we don't want to change it, or we do want to change it, or sometimes we don't even realize it. So what are some steps to kind of examining our hearts and being open and willing to be okay with where we are?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, that's great, great question. I think one of the first things is actually quite practical. Even as some of you saw the title of this podcast on your phone or started hearing this come up on your device, ask yourself the question what was my first response? What was my first reaction to hearing that Ben Lippen School is doing a podcast on racial issues? Was it? Oh? I can't believe they're going woke. Was it? Oh? This is amazing. Finally they're doing it. Or was it? Oh? They're going to totally mess this up? They have no idea what they're talking about and I don't want to assume that that's a right or wrong response. Please understand, I'm not looking to judge your response, but I am hopeful that, one, you'll be willing to look back and ask yourself what was your response. And two, to consider is that response holding you back from engaging? Now, again, I think the response is somewhat understandable given our current climate experiences. Again, I don't want to assume that the response is wrong, but to what degree is it already maybe putting up some barriers of engagement?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

One of the things I often say for myself, if not for my students and clients that I work with. First step is admitting. Next step is dealing. And how do we now start dealing with those barriers that may be coming up? For me, that's kind of what we're going to be getting into with some of this discussion on a biblical theology of race. I'm hopeful that we'll let The Gospel, the word of God, inform and start maybe pulling down some of those barriers that we've developed.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

But for me, yeah, it always kind of comes back to one admit and now start to deal in some honest ways. Part of that might be talking to somebody about it too, right? I think one of the I know for me, one of the biggest and most impactful ways I grow and learn is just talking to others. Let's be honest, this is a topic that sometimes people are a little nervous to even engage with, and so I recognize maybe some of the awkwardness or hesitation. But I think just getting it out sometimes in itself can be such a helpful means of better understanding our response and then asking okay, what can I do to maybe start removing some of those barriers to further engaging?

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yeah, and it's our intention behind sharing what's in our heart.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, right, right that, hopefully that gives us a we're not looking to fight, we're not looking to okay, I'm going to put this person in their place kind of idea. But it's truly asking if we believe that we're all on a growth journey, what we theologically called sanctification. There's. Every area of my life needs improvement, every area, and so if this is one area that you're hearing and you're thinking I got this one figured out, might I suggest that's probably a area you need to work on, because we all are growing until the Lord takes us to glory.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Absolutely, absolutely. And something else that's coming to mind as you're talking is God wants us to come just as we are, whatever our heart posture is, he wants us to come and be open with him.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

That's a great point and maybe to kind of even add to that he wants us to come as we are, but not stay as we are.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yes.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Because I think both are. That's a great point, Erin. I think both are so important. You don't have to get yourself all figured out and then come to God. God's like no, no, no, no. Just like the prodigal son. You just need to turn in all of your brokenness and God, the father, is waiting for you. And yet that story in Luke 15 indicates the father is so thankful to receive the son in his brokenness, but then he puts a ring on his finger, a robe on his back, sandals. He doesn't leave him in his brokenness. Come as you are, but the father loves you too much to leave you as you are.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Perhaps this may be one of those areas that you recognize. You're okay. I need to grow, I need to develop. I need to maybe admit some brokenness in this area, but come with hope, knowing the Father wants to do something here. And I think, in a community like Ben Lippen, where that's one of our goals right, we are looking to glorify God from a biblical worldview, so that our students can grow in every sense of the word, and I think that's a large reason why parents and family members send their kids to Ben Lippen, because they want that for their kids, but they most definitely want to see that in their families as well.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Yeah, absolutely. And, listeners, we're not just going to leave you hanging here. We're going to. This is going to be an ongoing series and we've broken it up into bite-sized chunks so that it's not overwhelming. And this is just the introduction to it, so that you can come as you are. So what are your suggestions for? You know, you mentioned one about you know what is my first response and kind of examining heart posture but what are some really solid ways that our listeners can prepare for the rest of this series?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. Yeah, we already kind of mentioned the. In light of the title, in light of the podcast topic, what's your first response? Maybe starting to identify some of those initial engagements. Also Erin is that then perhaps putting up some barriers? Are you finding yourself resistant just because of the topic and some of the experiences or ways you've engaged?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

And then I think, very practically, to try to have some of these conversations with people you trust, find some people in your community, in your family, where you can start asking those questions, admitting some of those realities, to what degree you can be part of that conversation with others, I think could be really helpful and asking. I think one area particularly for me is asking the Lord to help my heart and let that then guide my mind. If my heart is filled with The Gospel, my mind will be willing to engage with God's truth. I think what Paul says in 2 Timothy this is kind of coming near the end of Paul's life, he's kind of going to be dealing with execution and so he's somewhat reflective on the life the Lord has led him into as he's sitting there in jail and he says the Lord's servant this is in 2 Timothy 2, the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to only those we agree with is not what the text says. Just to be clear, I'm intentionally misreading it there.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Let me read it in the right way then.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

The Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone. If your first response, if my first response, is this is the topic and those are the people I'm against, again, I. If my first response is this is the topic and those are the people I'm against, again, I understand. I want to give space for the frustrations and the concerns that I think are legitimate when it comes to these areas, but if my first response is how can I beat these other people down? How can I win, how can I own the other side, as it were?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

If that's my first response, I am not in keeping with the commands of scripture. Being kind to everyone and I'm not a Greek scholar, but I'm pretty sure the Greek for everyone there means everyone agree with them or not. The best way I can start engaging, if not in my own life, in my own community, at Ben Lippen, is to start letting my responses be honest, talking to others and letting my engagement be a winsome engagement, and I think that's a good place to start, in terms of our posture of the heart at least.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

That's great. Thank you so much for that. So this series is going to be a little bit different than the one that we did with Chris McKenna, with Protect Young Eyes, in that Dr Mathew and I we are recording four episodes and then we're leaving the last episode, not recorded just yet, because we want to open the floor to our listeners, to be able to have this open dialogue and to ask questions and to just let us know how you're feeling as we navigate through this. So in our show notes, you will find a link to a form that you can fill out where you can ask your questions about what we talked about today, and Dr Mathew and I we are going to review them and we will have a little questions, concerns and comments where you get to have a voice in this. So please fill that out and let us know if there's anything that we can do to help support you with this journey.

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, that's a great reminder, Erin. I think we want to provide some engagement. In no ways do we have all the answers, but I think that's part of the joy of working together is having some dialogue and then keeping to go back to scripture so we can find more answers in God's truth.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

Absolutely, Dr Mathew. If anyone wants to get in touch with you, what's the best way?

Dr. Ben Mathew:

Yeah, I'm a professor at Columbia International University and so I'm not nearly as cool as everyone else with Instagram and all the other social media, so email is just going to be the easiest way to contact me. B-e-n dot M-A-T-H-E-W at C-I-U dot E-D-U. My kids are quick to remind me I was born in the 1900s, so I'm pretty old.

Mrs. Erin Kay:

So, anyway, well, thank you so much for being here with us today, and we will see everyone on our next episode.

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